How stupid does Corus think listeners are?

[tuned]

American radio markets have more radio stations than similar sized Canadian markets. Why restrict the number of radio stations? The only people that benefit are the existing license holders. Is the CRTC still regulating formats like some third world dictator? If they are it's high time they stopped such protectionist nonsense.

The CBC radio has the luxury of not running any commercials while the corporate broadcasters have been increasing their spot loads. I'm not surprised that people are tuning in more. That all taxpayers are forced to support a left wing propaganda machine is unreasonable in a real democracy. The CBC should run ads like everyone else and not get a dime from taxpayers. If they want to go ad free they could get subscribers like public broadcasters in the US. Let's see what their audience is like then. I'm sure they'll still have an audience but there is zero reason why taxpayers should be on the hook for the CBC.

The national media is pretty much 100% Liberal. The editors and gatekeepers of what gets on the air all lean the same way. Not to mention that the media is owned by half a dozen companies. Sure there are some local shows and independent media but the vast majority of what is broadcast and written is slanted one way. Go to the home page of the Globe and Mail right now. We're in the middle of an election and they've got a ton of Trump stories. Why?

Why even bring up Fox News? It's an American channel that likely has a small audience in Canada. Ever watched CBC Newsworld? They could teach Fox News a thing or two about propaganda and unlike Fox News the CBC "news" channel is only on the air because taxpayers are forced to pay for it. As long as the CBC is financed by taxpayers they shouldn't be so blatantly biased.

[tuned]

All the evidence that you need of CBC bias is on brilliant display with their copyright infringement lawsuit against the Conservatives for using a few seconds of debate footage. Their supposedly unbiased reporters are named as Plaintiffs. The sheer arrogance and stupidity of the lawsuit is breathtaking but then again it's the CBC.
Do you think there would be a lawsuit if Justin had wanted to use some clips? I think not.

[paterson]

Well tuned to discuss your points.

Canadian markets of similar size have fewer stations? Usually true, however the radio frequencies are full in many Canadian markets that are close to the border. So licensing regular commercial stations is almost impossible. CRTC has been licensing lower power community stations that in many cases sound the same as regular radio with commercials, jingles, hourly news. When you look at the station count for cities, these stations and college radio stations normally are not included, and I am assuming this is true in the US as well. US markets tend to include out of market stations close to the major market as a local station when in fact the license is not for that city. We don't do that as much.

We just discussed audience numbers being low, as compared to 35 years ago and you are blaming all of this on station ownership groups while ignoring the number of new stations that have been licensed when there was room, also the advent of satellite radio, out of market radio station apps, music steaming etc. If there has been audience erosion these are more of a factor than station ownership. Simply put much more choice now as compared to 35 years ago. When I worked in Owen Sound Ontario in the early 80's the city had one radio station and you could tune in one other clear out of market. Today Owen Sound (which has not grown in population) has 7 local radio stations, and you can tune in many more stations out of market. The 7 Owen Sound stations are split between 4 different owners.

CRTC has loosened up format changes. For music format you can change formats tomorrow if you want. Music to talk yes you would need to go through the process especially if there is another similar format in your market. So what? Why would you call this a third world dictator? CRTC wants stations to be successful and the operators of a license want to be able to turn a profit. The CRTC is more of the adjudicator between stations who make the case why and competitors why not a station would move to talk. Anyway this hasn't been a big issue, stations normally get the format they want.

CBC is popular because of no commercials and taxpayers are brainwashed with left wing propoganda? You don't have much faith in your average taxpayer do you? Maybe people tune in because they like what is being offered, similar to any other station. People are brainwashed? Please...doesn't even deserve a response. CBC should run ads, they did that 50 years ago and dropped the ads since they are public broadcasting supported by taxpayers.

CBC News Network is stand alone. They derive their budget from advertising and cable fees. Yes they inherit CBC news staff from the main network in addition to their own staff and work out of the same building, again so what? Why wouldn't they do this? CBC News Network is more popular than CTV News Channel but sadly ever since the election of Trump, both trail CNN. However where I live Bells local CP24 is the number one news channel.

Why bring up Fox News, because they are a perfect example of what happens when a company gets in bed with politicians and a party. CBC is nothing like this, not even close. Does Justin Trudeau call up CBC on a whim and slam his opponents live on air for 45 minutes when ever he feels like it? It was the Globe and Mail and CBC that kept the SNC Lavalin scandal alive in the news. CBC.ca allows comments from all side on their website, editorially they raked Trudeau over the coals after the blackface incident with an editorial calling him a hypocrite, priviledged and claiming that he had the problem and it wasn't Canadians. Unlike other polling CBC has more or less had the Conservatives leading in the CBC Poll Tracker since February.

CBC journalists have been dropped from the suit. On this point I agree, and the fact the CBC is taking the Conservatives to court is stupid. If you are going to sue, do it after the election. However the conservatives have have been warned about using clips of their personalities before this. I don't know if this has come up with other networks. CBC doesn't want their journalists in political ads because it appears that they are supporting a party or a platform. However their taking the tories to court does the same thing in that it makes them look biased against the Conservatives. Dumb move but it will see how far this actually goes in court, we will need to wait and see.

[tuned]

I believe the quality of what's on the air collectively by all the radio stations in Canada is much lower quality than it was prior to a few large companies owning all the sticks. There used to be a live all night show on almost every single Vancouver radio station back in the day. How many are there in 2019? Commercials were limited to I believe 12 minutes per hour.

The CRTC wants stations to be successful? What's wrong with letting the market decide? It's interesting that the blessing of government bureaucrats is required to change to a talk format. Wouldn't want a bunch of anti-establishment right wingers grabbing a hold of a frequency now would we. Who cares if a radio station goes out of business? Someone else will pick up the frequency that is better qualified to run it.

CBC radio is popular because they have high quality programming with no commercials produced by a well paid, professional workforce. That's only possible because they are 100% subsidized by taxpayers. Why do we need government funded radio stations that are politically biased? Let them sell ads like everyone else and not receive money from taxpayers. I suspect if they had to operate like a commercial radio stations their ratings would crater. For starters how many private radio stations in Canada are fully unionized?

You are worried about Fox News being "in bed" with Trump but you have no problem with our government using billions of dollars of taxpayers money to fund a State broadcaster that's 100% in bed with the Left. CBC Newsworld has received billions, that's with a B of taxpayer money in addition to selling ads and getting extortion money from cable subscribers who are forced to pay for the channel whether they want it or not. I seem to recall when a right wing news network wanted the same "must carry" deal as the CBC they were denied by the CRTC.

You probably also don't have a problem with newspapers getting hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to support "good journalism". Wink wink. The CBC lawsuit makes then "look" biased against the Conservatives? It makes them look like an entitled bureaucracy that's out of control and out of touch with the average taxpayer. But then you only have a problem with the timing of the lawsuit. Imagine if PBS tried to sue Trump for using a news clip in a campaign ad? What little government funding they get would be cut off in about five seconds. And rightfully so.

[WheresFredTaylor]

Paterson's comment, re: listeners wanting to hear about the election/Oilers.

Listeners aren't tuning into The Chuck for that content. It appears (judging by popular segments on their website) that a lot of the content is already in play in the Edmonton market. Second date/Courthouse etc already have a place on 104.9 (maybe 102.3 as well), so the content is something that listeners get already.

If they really desire election and Oilers talk, they're glued to CHED, CISN (for Corus connections) or TSN.

[paterson]

Well tuned, we have either bored everyone to death with our long posts, or we have livened up the message board!

Collectively I think it is a mixed bag pro and con radio compared to say 30 years ago. A lot of things and businesses are nothing like they were 30 years ago. Some radio is better today as I mentioned with all talk, news, sports radio which wasn't the norm back in the day. Some of the independents in my area sound better now than they did when they were locally owned. All have new equipment and better studios, they don't however have the number of staff as they did. Smaller broadcast groups that own 8-10 stations have done the same thing as the big guys. Are they doing this out of necessity or because they can, is debatable. However in our free enterprise society companies will tend to opt for the route that will save money, improve the bottom line. And if they go too far, as you say the market will decide. I am not saying this is wrong or a bad thing, it is how all companies large and small operate.

The CRTC I think to their credit has attempted to treat broadcast companies differently than a regular business however. They and the BBG before them have always treated a broadcast license and frequencies as a responsibility, not a right. Frequences (the air) are not the domain only of broadcast companies, they also belong to all Canadians, and as we know the number traditional radio frequencies are not infinite. Having a license for any station is a responsibility and yes a privilege. I know in the states they don't necessarily look at it that way, and that is fine. But it also doesn't mean that the way it is done here is wrong.

CBC has a 100% left bias is 100% wrong. CBC as a public broadcaster does and will air different points of view. Do they always get the balance right? Probably not. CBC is not consistent in their viewpoints and they are not supposed to be. As I said an editorial on CBC.ca a few weeks back was absolutely critical of the liberals, Justin Trudeau,and was about as good as anything you would read in Sun Media. They do and will provide a more right point of view on occasion and will likely have the other side as well. That's likely why they have comments after stories that let all shades of the spectrum voice their comments. I remember the only editorial you would see a few years ago on the National once per week was with Rex Murphy, who often was critical of both the Liberals and Trudeau. But he would argue the other side on occasion as well depending on the story.

CBC radio is not really my cup of tea but I do listen on occasion and they are by no means all political, they do feature a lot of programming that isn't otherwise found anywhere else, and that is what they are supposed to be doing. CBC is not the extravagant money pit that many on the right try to portray them as. CBC/Radio Canada last year received $1.2 billion from the taxpayer, from advertising, cable fees, selling of some of their programs, real estate etc they bring in about another $450-500 million. So they have a working budget of about $1.7 billion for all programming, wages, benefits, buildings etc for CBC/Radio Canada. BBC in the UK received over $6 billion in Canadian funds from the taxpayer in the UK. The BBC from advertising (some of their specialty channels have ads), cable fees, program sales, real estate etc brought in another $2 billion for a total of $8.4 billion for their working budget.

In terms of total budgets CBC would be smaller than Bell Media with 35 specialty channels, Corus with over 30 specialty channels, and Rogers with 10. And as you rightly pointed out, Bell, Rogers, Corus (Shaw) control the cable companies as well. Is that a bad thing. Yeah on paper it could be, but broadcasters felt they needed to grow and cable is and was an expensive business to get into and the CRTC listened to them. CBC is also no longer competitive for bidding on major league sports, they couldn't match Rogers $5.2 billion offer for NHL rights. CBC does have the Olympics until 2024, and they were smart to partner with TSN, Sportsnet and TVA sports to help with costs and coverage. I don't think Rogers will be doing anything like they have with the NHL again.

Lack of right wing radio. Yes we don't have the yelling shout radio of the US, on mostly the right and some on the left. Who cares? We don't need to be a carbon copy of all things american. I am not anti american and find americans usually friendlier and more interesting than most canadians I meet, but we do live in a different country, with a different legal system, different political system and yes a different broadcast system. Just because it is different and you or whoever doesn't like it doesn't mean it is inferior or wrong.

Sun News Channel was crap and that's why it didn't survive. Also Sun didn't really have the resources in the first place, they had no broadcast experience, and there was no news on the channel, it was all opinion. Notice how both CBCNN and CTV News Channel both actually have news. Sun Media didn't think that part through very well.
They weren't on basic cable but most people don't buy basic cable. I had Sun News Channel on my Rogers service from day one with the other news channels. Anyone I talked to had either never watched them and if they did, thought it was more like a local cable channel and seemed amateurish. Sun whined about how unfairly they were being treated by everyone, and it was everyone else's fault why they didn't succeed. It couldn't be the content. YUP it was the content, and guess what, the market decided.

[paterson]

Paterson's comment, re: listeners wanting to hear about the election/Oilers.

Listeners aren't tuning into The Chuck for that content. It appears (judging by popular segments on their website) that a lot of the content is already in play in the Edmonton market. Second date/Courthouse etc already have a place on 104.9 (maybe 102.3 as well), so the content is something that listeners get already.

If they really desire election and Oilers talk, they're glued to CHED, CISN (for Corus connections) or TSN.

Sorry, I guess I didn't make my point very well. What I was trying to get across was the fact with an out of market syndicated morning show, the morning hosts wouldn't be able to refer to anything specifically local in either Edmonton or Ottawa. Naturally sports, political comment are available on other stations and I know that listeners don't tune into Chuck or Jump for that, but that also doesn't mean that the listeners are not interested any in local content. These are supposedly major market professional full service stations are they not? Saying they can get it elsewhere is just a poor excuse for doing nothing.

Obviously Corus is prepared for lower ratings in the morning and probably lower revenue. In the chance that the two hosts from Seattle are popular in Edmonton (they aren't doing well in Ottawa) then I guess good for them, and good for Chuck, even if it was short lived which it likely would be. And as I said, in my opinion any station or company that brings in an out of town morning show in cities like Edmonton, Calgary or Ottawa are giving up and are basically lazy. They are offering less to the audience and they are prepared to get less back from the audience, their city, and from advertisers.

[tuned]

I vote for livening up the message board!

Sun News had no broadcast experience? They were owned and operated by Quebecor the largest and most successful broadcaster in a province that has one third of Canada's population.

If you don't think the CBC has a blatant left bias in everything they do then we'll just have to disagree. Tell me with a straight face that if Justin had of used the same footage in a TV ad they would have sued the Liberals for Copyright Infringement.

Media consolidation is the worst thing that has happened to democracy in my life time. When the media became big corporate in the 90s I stopped watching and listening. It happened gradually and of course the internet played a part in it but at this point I consume very little of it. I do however enjoy your take on all things sports via podcast! (I can't take the ten minute commercial breaks on 1040)

I don't think the Canucks will ever win a Cup as long as Aquillini owns the team...

[paterson]

Hahaha, I vote for livening up the message board as well. Anyone who has read any of ours posts over the last few days might disagree.

I forgot about Quebecor owning the Sun News Network. All I can say is that they must have given Sun free reign or didn't put that much into the station because it didn't really have the look of a major broadcaster being involved. Again it was Sun News Channel but I never saw much if any news coverage of anything, but lots of opinion. Quebecor owns the very successful TVA network and has a news channel in Quebec, so I don't know why none of the slickness or quality didn't show up on Sun News.

I won't defend the CBC taking the Conservatives to court because I think they are wrong in doing so, and definitely should have waited until after the election. The CBC are making themselves look bad.

When I was in radio and broadcasting, I had the pleasure of working for some independents and some of the big guys as well. To be honest, both had their good and bad points. But I haven't been in the business for a while, so now I speak as a consumer and a customer of both radio and TV. It is not the same as it was and either is my waistline.

Thanks for your time tune, and my apology to everyone for some of my overly wordy posts.

I am a Leaf fan, enough said..

[Aaron]

I see the thread has veered from this just a bit ...but

Brooke and Jubal are often #1 in Seattle, and they're no more local there than anywhere else. They're also #1 in other markets. As is Bobby Bones. As has been Tom Joyner. And try not to roll your eyes, but so was some dude by the name of Howard.

We just have less experience with this in Canada, but the right syndicated show at the right time on the right station will work. It isn't inherently giving up, or settling for less revenue for less expense.

In Ottawa, JUMP's dominant competition is 99% about the show's personalities. To the point where Stingray has believed *it* can be syndicated elsewhere.

Their audiences don't expect then to show up at the local Santa Clause parade any more than they do any other entertainer.

Sorry Aaron, programming a syndicated out of market morning show in big, vibrant, modern cities like Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa is giving up. Jump 106.9 in Ottawa, after a couple of bad books in 2018 seems to have bowed to their competitors with similar formats.

Yes Jump, and now 92.5 Chuck in Edmonton will not be debriefing the election, in fact the new morning team won't be saying anything at all about the election from the previous night, or anything about the Senators or Oilers, or the fact that one of the local high schools will be in the provincial volleyball championships this afternoon.

But they will pander to that young audience that supposedly only wants to hear about Hollywood, what was on TMZ, and what does Taylor Swift really think about Rihanna? The competition can do all of this as well, and probably will, but they have a big advantage because the morning hosts on the competition can also comment on something local where Jump and The Chuck can't anymore.

It will be interesting to see if Brooke and Jubal make it up to Edmonton and Ottawa this year to ride in the Corus Entertainment float in the Santa Clause Parade! The locals always like to see and maybe even meet the people behind the voice.

[Aaron]

In Ottawa, JUMP's dominant competition is 99% about the show's personalities. To the point where Stingray has believed *it* can be syndicated elsewhere.

To add to this, JUMP really did try to make a dent with going all-in on local. If anything, the Ottawa example proves the potential dominance of personality and entertainment above all else.

[paterson]

In Ottawa, JUMP's dominant competition is 99% about the show's personalities. To the point where Stingray has believed *it* can be syndicated elsewhere.

To add to this, JUMP really did try to make a dent with going all-in on local. If anything, the Ottawa example proves the potential dominance of personality and entertainment above all else.

So you are saying that Jump years ago was all entertainment talk and had good ratings, and then changed to all-in-local and this bombed? So then they decided to fire the morning hosts, bring in a syndicated morning show and go back to to all entertainment talk again? That doesn't make any sense, and I doubt if any Hit Music Station went "all-in-local" at any time. They had decent ratings years ago, what happened? I doubt the morning hosts who had been there for over three years ruined the ratings because they decided to go all-in-local all of a sudden in their breaks. Maybe some of the other many hit music stations in Ottawa (french and english) just became a little better than Jump?

And the hosts were fired the first day of the fall ratings on September 3rd? Oh please, what brain trust thought that up. Were the imports brought in right away or did they go jockless for the ratings? "Oh yeah, lets get a real buzz going for the book, and even if the press is bad, who cares, this will get everyone talking and everyone will tune in to see what the big deal is all about." Yup that's how people would react??

So Brooke and Jubal are sometimes #1 in Seattle and are entertainment and personality just like everywhere else. Did they not start out as a local show before syndication? So the awareness of these two in Seattle would be high because of this since they have been around for a while? And I am sure when they were local in Seattle they would do occasional local references would they not?

And they are number #1 in some other markets. So why have they not moved the needle at all in Ottawa? In fact aren't they still in a bit of a slide overall? This still tells me that Corus doesn't know what to do and have decided to bring in Jubal and Brook who are doing well in some US markets to solve a problem. And even if the new show eventually does well in Edmonton or Ottawa it won't last.

Remember Howard at Q107 was brought in to help a failing morning show in Toronto? Howard had lots of press and buzz, was hassled by the CBSC even the CRTC and he did pretty good for about a year, and then the slide. Q had a very expensive imported show that wasn't drawing the numbers any longer, and Howard loved to talk about New York, his ratings vs. the competition, and oh yes those huge 7-10 minute commercial clusters in US radio. It may work in Ottawa and Edmonton, but I think the expectations at Corus are low and there is a lot more going on here than any of us would know about.

[paterson]

I listened to 106.9 JUMP in Ottawa for the syndicated Brooke and Jubal, and their main competition, the "Morning Hot Tub" on Hot 89.9. Both shows tends to revolve around the hosts, and both have a fun, never ending party feel to them. However as I predicted, there are a few big differences. The morning crew on Hot 89.9 Mauler, Rush and Jenni did in fact have lots of local content during the 90 minutes I listened, and they are live.

They featured two Ottawa Senator players singing about the sunrise over Ottawa with the "Sunrise Song," which was played a few times. Three references were made regarding the election, encouraging listeners to vote, one break two of the hosts talked about what happened to them when they voted last time. Also one of the hosts referenced the possibility of an upcoming school strike with Catholic teachers. During their newsbreaks called "Hot Flashes" the hosts would chime in and comment on some of the stories occasionally. So this gives their program a live feel. But through all of this the fun vibe of the program continued.

Over on Jump with Brooke and Jubal, of course had nothing like this at all. In fact all of their breaks are pre-recorded and the show isn't live. Brooke and Jubal don't sound connected to the rest of the show, music is dropped in and the hosts didn't make any reference to any of the music played like on Hot 89.9. Also Jump's breaks had nothing that could be termed as topical or happening today, at least I didn't hear anything current.

Brooke and Jubal do more phone work (The Phone Tap) and the three phoners I heard had similar formats with the listener confused about the call, didn't know who was calling or who Brooke and Jubal were, wondered why their boyfriend/girlfriend/friend would arrange a call about their visit to the spa/lack of second date etc. The Phone Tap calls are staged of course, but the reaction of the person receiving the phone call also sounded fake and staged. The one phone call on Hot 89.9, the Crush Rush was live with the local caller saying what part of town he lived in, and he played the Morning Crush trivia game.

Sounded like Jump's Brooke and Jubal might have played a little more music than The Morning Hot Tub, but neither show played many songs. And yes, I am not the demographic that these programs are designed for, but to me the breaks tended to be very long on both shows, and apparently everything is funny!! The laughing over almost anything and everything got to be annoying on both programs. But because Hot 89.9 is live, the three hosts had more spontaneity than Brooke and Jubal. And again this allowed Mauler, Rush and Jenni the ability to comment on the morning traffic, weather, something local, which they did.

[Just sayin']

It's always about the money. They have to get their share price up, or stockholders will flee. It's just business, and anything the suits can do to make money, they will. Syndicated shows are cheap, no health benefits, HR issues, vacation pay etc.

[paterson]

It will be interesting to see how Brooke and Jubal do in Edmonton. With all of the savings having an imported morning show, maybe The Chuck will be able to promote the living day lights out of the new show on TV, billboards etc. So far Brooke and Jubal haven't done anything in Ottawa for Jump fm, and they have been on the station for over a year.

Of the two shows, The Morning Hot Tub was the better in my opinion and this is reflected in the ratings for Hot 89.9 in Ottawa. But again the shows were not designed for someone my age.

You are right, it is always about the money. Looks like The Chuck is down pretty far in the ratings in Edmonton so i am sure that Corus will be happy with almost any increase. Does anyone know if there has been any media coverage in Edmonton regarding the new show in newspapers or TV?